Tahoe/Subn brakes – toddler killed this morning
Question:
I’ll quote the photo caption… The woman and child were walking across the street when a red van reportedly obsured their view of an approaching sport utility vehicle does that mean you walk out into the street anyway, even though you can’t see?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I saw this accident on TV this evening. Involved an SUV > that looks like a late Suburban or Tahoe. The TV > station’s website has an interesting overhead photo > that makes it look like the SUV was able to stop about > half a car length beyond the impact point. Too bad the > SUV didn’t have better brakes, like the year 2000 models will have. > Jim > Here is info from two TV stations’ websites. > From KNBC Los Angeles website, 5-19-99 > http://msnbc.com/local/knbc/163693.asp The NBC website has a very > interesting photo > of the accident > Toddler fatally struck near school > LYNWOOD, May 19 – A truck driver struck and killed a three-year-old boy > and injured his mother while they crossed the > street at Lindbergh Elementary School Wednesday, hours after a > parent-teacher meeting about the need for a crosswalk. > Leonora Robles, of the PTA, chides school officials for not heeding > traffic safety warnings earlier. > The accident occurred at 8:15 a.m. at Cedar and Longvale avenues, said > Deputy Cruz Solis of the Sheriff’s Headquarters > Unit. The boy and his mother were taken to St. Francis Medical Center in > Lynwood, where the youngster died, Solis said. > The woman was listed in fair condition. > "We had to wait until there’s a tragedy? (Now) we have all the city > officials here looking at the scene. Couldn’t they be > here before this happened? -Leonora Robles, PTA President > Their names were not immediately released. Paramedic student Carlos > Jimenez witnessed the accident and > performed CPR on the toddler. "(The mother) said, ‘God, please take me, > not my baby,’" Jimenez said. "I’m trying to work > on the baby, trying to calm down the mom and she was just frantic." The > woman had just dropped off her 6-year-old daughter > for classes at the school and was walking back across a street when a > red van reportedly obscured their view of the > approaching sport utility vehicle. A meeting was held Tuesday night to > address concerns of parents and teachers about the > need for a crosswalk, stop sign or crossing guard at the intersection. > "We had to wait until there’s a tragedy?" PTA Treasurer Leonora Robles > asked. "(Now) we have all the city officials here > looking at the scene. Couldn’t they be here before this happened?" An > "emergency" meeting on the subject reportedly is > scheduled for Thursday morning. > Same story, and interesting photo from another angle, on KABC Los > Angeles website > http://www.abcnews.go.com/local/kabc/News/25513_5191999.html
Response:
Are the HB units from the auto parts stores new or reman? Good point about changing the fluids for preventative maint. That not only removes metals from the action of normal use but probably gets some moisture out of the system also. It probably would not be a bad idea to flush and change the power steering system and brake system fluids every couple of years anyway. The GM PowerMaster booster was an unusual piece for the time. It was somewhat misunderstood as to how it functioned, but was also plagued with problems of soft pedal and other things related to poor performance. Service people and owners did not understand why the fluid reservoir would be nearly empty with the engine running. There basically were no "user serviceable parts" in the system other than the pressure switch. At the time, they were about $450.00 and then avail only as new. There were some GM Remans initially, but most of the ones sold were new. Then, the new ones got to be even higher priced and then became unavailable. That left the GM Remans which also later went away except for special handling orders. These later orders had to be submitted to a non-GM group (lawyers?) who would then approve and arrange shipment of the units. And they were finally discontinued. The PowerMaster was used in car applications where low engine vac might or was a problem. The Olds 307 V-8 of that time had an external vac pump to run the a/c doors open and closed. The PM had the advantage of being run by an elec pump and not requiring any engine power to run it. I suspect that there were enough complaints and lawsuits concerned with the PM booster on GM cars they wanted to know where they were going and why. Their basic use was on mid-80s full-size wagons with 307 Olds motors. They were used only a few years. When someone called in to inquire about a brake booster for one of those cars, we knew it was because they were having problems with the PM booster and no one would troubleshoot or work on them (for whatever reason–probably liability concerns). Toward the end of their availability, a grandfather came in to see about getting one. He had had problems with it and no one would touch it. I priced him one from GM and he balked at the price. He said he would check the salvage yards. He came back a few weeks later and said all of the wagons like his (which had the PM system) had already been stripped of the booster. We went through the channels to get him a PM booster and put it on for him. GM had no service bulletins regarding putting HB systems on or putting vac boosters on either as an alternative. The other application the PM boosters were used on was the Buick Regal turbo cars. From all of the problems which the B-platform wagons had, the Buick turbos should have been in there too, but we very seldom had any inquiries on those vehicles or had them in the service dept with brake problems. Some of the perf Buick people have put other types of boosters on their turbo cars to replace the PM boosters. As with any modification to a safety-related item, the owner takes full responsibility and liability for these non-oem production brake system reconfigurations. The theory behind the PowerMaster booster is a good one. But one that needs more refinement and durability than the orig GM systems. We may see a return to them in the future. Enjoy! FS87LT
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Good point about response time. That’s also why Lincoln put the special > taillights on the last year of their Marks. The different lights > illuminate fractions of a second quicker, but that adds up to the > vehicles behind being able to see the brake lights illuminate about 20 > feet sooner (at the 60mph range). The expense is not really noticed on > a car of that price range whereas it would be too much for a lower > priced car. > Packaging is the other valid point in some situations. You either have > a large diameter booster (single diaphram) or a smaller and longer > tandem (double diaphram) booster. > There is one other issue which I’ve seen over the years with the HB > booster. That is long-term durability. It is great until it gets about > 5-6 yrs on it and it starts to leak in the floorboard. There is a > "rebuild" kit for about $50-60 or the other choice is a new booster for > about 10 times that. > Everyone usually "bites" for the kit, but with that much age on the > system, just like a brake wheel cylinder, sometimes they will not "take > the kit". Then, they come back and buy the booster they should have > bought the first time. > Perhaps, it might be advantageous to change the power steering fluid > every so often to minimize moisture accumulation. And always remember > to use Power Steering Fluid ONLY and not ATF (this has been a GM and > Chry recommendation from back into the ’60s) in the power steering > system. > One other problem has been loss of steering boost when braking. I’m not > sure what usually fixes that, but the problem surfaces every so often. > And then there’s all of the high pressure lines to plumb underhood also. > In some cases and uses, the old vac booster looks pretty good. > I like the idea of having hydraulics running the power brakes. I think > that Citroen used one hydraulic pump and accumulator to run the brakes, > steering, and auto levelling on some of their cars in the late 60s. > While there are some definite benefits to the HB system (feel, response > time, packaging, etc.) there are also a few things on the down side of > the system. I wanted to mention these other factors for those who might > be considering such a conversion. > Perhaps if we all drove like a loved one was in an adjacent vehicle or > could walk out into the street in front of us we might drive a little > more sanely and pay greater attention to where and how we were driving. > But, if the loved one was not loved very much, wellll. > A good driver can make up for a marginal vehicle and a great vehicle can > make a mediocre driver look at least decent. > Thanks for your additional comments. > FS87LT
Jim says: Since 1988 or so HydroBoosts have had double seals and as a result go much longer than before without leaking. Mine is 10 years old and is fine, knock wood. Also, if you buy your replacement from a parts store rather than from a car dealer, the cost is not 10x, but about 3x the cost of the rebuild kit. It is a good idea to change the fluid after the vehicle is a few months old, and then maybe every few years after that. That way you get rid of the abrasive particles that come off the innards of the pump, steering gear, and HB unit during during normal wear (and especially fast when they’re brand new). I was looking at a Land Rover the other day. It had a lot of high tech stuff on it. It had a brake booster that appears to use hydraulic pressure pumped into a nitrogen over oil storage cylinder by a small electric motor that runs only when the pressure in the storage cylinder has been used. I think GM had a product like that, about 10 years ago, called PowerMaster. I haven’t seen PM recently. These self contained hydraulic boosters, if designed and applied properly, can have the fast action of a HydroBoost booster without the HB disadvantages that you mentioned: lotsa plumbing running all over the place, and momentary loss of power assist when using brakes and steering simultaneously with engine at idle speed. Jim
Response:
Good point about response time. That’s also why Lincoln put the special taillights on the last year of their Marks. The different lights illuminate fractions of a second quicker, but that adds up to the vehicles behind being able to see the brake lights illuminate about 20 feet sooner (at the 60mph range). The expense is not really noticed on a car of that price range whereas it would be too much for a lower priced car. Packaging is the other valid point in some situations. You either have a large diameter booster (single diaphram) or a smaller and longer tandem (double diaphram) booster. There is one other issue which I’ve seen over the years with the HB booster. That is long-term durability. It is great until it gets about 5-6 yrs on it and it starts to leak in the floorboard. There is a "rebuild" kit for about $50-60 or the other choice is a new booster for about 10 times that. Everyone usually "bites" for the kit, but with that much age on the system, just like a brake wheel cylinder, sometimes they will not "take the kit". Then, they come back and buy the booster they should have bought the first time. Perhaps, it might be advantageous to change the power steering fluid every so often to minimize moisture accumulation. And always remember to use Power Steering Fluid ONLY and not ATF (this has been a GM and Chry recommendation from back into the ’60s) in the power steering system. One other problem has been loss of steering boost when braking. I’m not sure what usually fixes that, but the problem surfaces every so often. And then there’s all of the high pressure lines to plumb underhood also. In some cases and uses, the old vac booster looks pretty good. I like the idea of having hydraulics running the power brakes. I think that Citroen used one hydraulic pump and accumulator to run the brakes, steering, and auto levelling on some of their cars in the late 60s. While there are some definite benefits to the HB system (feel, response time, packaging, etc.) there are also a few things on the down side of the system. I wanted to mention these other factors for those who might be considering such a conversion. Perhaps if we all drove like a loved one was in an adjacent vehicle or could walk out into the street in front of us we might drive a little more sanely and pay greater attention to where and how we were driving. But, if the loved one was not loved very much, wellll. A good driver can make up for a marginal vehicle and a great vehicle can make a mediocre driver look at least decent. Thanks for your additional comments. FS87LT
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I will concur that it is regrettable that this event occured. But there > have been some incorrect facts mentioned about the braking systems on > the current and 2000 Suburban brake systems. > There was a mention of "upgrading" to HydroBoost on gas engine > Suburbans. When did this become "popular" and just how much of the > system was changed to do this? Is the vac booster replaced or was the > master cyl replaced also? > The HydroBoost system came out with the previous generation of GM light > trucks in the 1973 time frame. It was reserved for hd chassis vehicles > (typically 1 tons and other vehicles above 7200 lbs GVW) where pulling > heavy loads would cause the engine to run at low vac levels and prevent > the vac booster from being fully "charged".
JimL says: You’ll also see HydroBoost on cars like the Mustang, where it’s used because it needs less room. JimL > Personally, I like the pedal feel of the HB system compared to the vac > booster system, but could not really tell any other differences in > performance other than that. Granted, I never got into a "life and > death" situation, but I had no cause of concern about what type of > booster was on the vehicle–they all stopped the vehicle well.
The other question that I might raise in regards to the HB conversion is > a theoretical one. How does the master cylinder in front of the booster > know what type of booster is behind it? > I will not debate the observations of those who claim the HB upgraded > vehicles stop 10 feet sooner than vac boosted vehicles. But I would > like to see a good engineering reason how the master cylinder can act > differently depending on what type of booster is driving it. )
JimL says: The engineering reason is that a HB is powered by 1200 psi hydraulic oil and puts out its full assist much quicker than can a vacuum booster which is powered by 10 psi air. You wouldn’t notice any difference during normal stops – just in panic stops when you have to stab the pedal. Then you’ll see that the HB will get the brakes on right away, while you’ll have a push real hard, and wait a bit, if you have a vacuum booster. Also, as you mentioned, the HB unit isn’t dependent on vacuum from the engine, as a vacuum booster is, so does not have the vac boosters occasional episodes of no or low boost. Jim L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
> JimL answers: > Do you have a Suburban? I do. > My Suburban came with a vacuum booster. Before I changed it over to a > HydroBooster I made numerous stopping > distance tests from 30 mph. After adding HydroBoost I tested again. The > distances were about 10 feet less. In the pictures > of the accident it appears that the Sub ran over the child by about 10 > feet. > Think about it…
Jim, I did think about it. Now you think about it…. Does the Sub in the picture have a hydroboost unit on it? I sure can’t tell, and I doubt you can either unless clairvoyance or x-ray vision runs in your family. Also, with no skid marks visible on the pavement, just exactly how did you come up with the figure of 10 feet? Again, how fast was she going? Exactly when and where did she apply her brakes? Can’t tell, can you. Even though they do say in the article that the ‘typical’ speed in the area is 45mph, she could have been doing 60, or even 20 – you just don’t know. > Did I mention that GM is phasing in HydroBoost to be standard equipment > on its entire line of full size truck products, with the 1/2 Ton > Suburban to finally get it in model year 2000? We should be curious why > they would voluntarily install a more expensive power brake booster > when the (much cheaper) vacuum boosters they are using currently must be > meeting federal standards (or they could not be sold).
If GM builds a product that meets all current standards, then when something like this happens is it really their fault, or the fault of the government drones who wrote the standards? As I said, GM may be sued anyways regardless of whether their brakes were properly designed or not. Putting the HydroBoost unit on new trucks is just their way of reducing liability and increasing performance, both of which have positive effects on profits. > Think about it… > JimL
Any explanation is just as plausible as your ‘bad brakes’ theory. I just hope the one that the highway patrol comes up with is based on fact, not congecture or speculation. Good luck – Jonathan — Acta Non Verba – Deeds Not Words Jonathan Race, Firefighter/Paramedic II Orange County (FL) Fire-Rescue Division A-Shift, Station 41 – "The Shark Tank" (http://home.mpinet.net/backdraft) Please follow directions in my return address, or Reply to: jrace at bitstorm dot net
Response:
> Jim, > I did think about it. Does the Sub in the > picture have a hydroboost unit on it? > Also, with no skid marks visible on the pavement, just exactly how did > you come up with the figure of 10 feet? Jonathan
Jim answers: Jonathan, You asked how I knew the Suburban doesn’t have HydroBoost. Answer: An official told me it was a 1500. 1500’s won’t have HydroBoost until the 2000 models come out. You asked how I figured that the Suburban ran over the child by about 10 feet. Answer: In the helo picture, there is a blood spot on the pavment at the rear wheels, which are about 10 feet behind the front wheels. Also, in the other picture, the one that shows the red van that the mother and toddler were hidden by, it looks like the Suburban’s rear bumper is even with the front of the red van, and this is consistent with the ten foot distance. Jim >
Response:
I will concur that it is regrettable that this event occured. But there have been some incorrect facts mentioned about the braking systems on the current and 2000 Suburban brake systems. There was a mention of "upgrading" to HydroBoost on gas engine Suburbans. When did this become "popular" and just how much of the system was changed to do this? Is the vac booster replaced or was the master cyl replaced also? The HydroBoost system came out with the previous generation of GM light trucks in the 1973 time frame. It was reserved for hd chassis vehicles (typically 1 tons and other vehicles above 7200 lbs GVW) where pulling heavy loads would cause the engine to run at low vac levels and prevent the vac booster from being fully "charged". The HydroBoost system, using the power steering pump to pressurize the accumulator is not affected by manifold vac levels. That is one reason it is also on all of the light truck diesels from the first 5.7L to the current 6.5L TurboDiesels. There may have been a few other applications, but these places are where they typically were on the GM light trucks. Ford put them on some Lincolns in the late 70s also. I drove many company trucks (from 1976 on) with the 5.7L Diesels, 6.2L Diesels, and a few gas rigs in the mix too–all were 1/2 ton Chevrolets. Personally, I like the pedal feel of the HB system compared to the vac booster system, but could not really tell any other differences in performance other than that. Granted, I never got into a "life and death" situation, but I had no cause of concern about what type of booster was on the vehicle–they all stopped the vehicle well. When I checked the GM parts "book" this morning at work, I discovered that booster useage on the 1999 Silverado is no different than it has been on the older C/K platform (which is the 1999 Suburban platform) for many years. That useage being–vehicles up to 7200 lbs GVW get a vac booster and those with GVW above that get a hydraulic booster. There was no mention of "running changes" or VIN breaks to indicate such changes. The 1999 Silverado has a superior brake system to the older platform with new dynamic proportioning that lets the rear brakes contribute more to the stopping of the vehicle than before. All current information that I was able to find indicates that the current booster useages will continue into the 2000 Suburban. Bottom line, if GM was going to put HB systems on the new platform across the board, I suspect they would already be there. That’s my gut feeling and until I get some documentation otherwise (i.e., parts book information, service information from GM) that will be my feelings. The other question that I might raise in regards to the HB conversion is a theoretical one. How does the master cylinder in front of the booster know what type of booster is behind it? I will not debate the observations of those who claim the HB upgraded vehicles stop 10 feet sooner than vac boosted vehicles. But I would like to see a good engineering reason how the master cylinder can act differently depending on what type of booster is driving it. Or did the master cylinder get changed too? I also checked the master cyl useages. The "normal" power brake systems on the up to 7200 lb GVW vehicles had one. The 7200+ GVW vehicles had another (HB equipped), and the 3500HD vehicles (also HB equipped) had another. Three different part numbers for the 1999 C/K platform. The other issue that we might throw into the mix is brake pads. The production GM pad is a very good pad (especially compared to the non-metallic pads from some auto supplies) and obviously meets the fed regulations for brake performance and pedal pressure. Although they may cost more, I believe they should be the minimum spec when buying new pads. We had several problems with brake pads on the prior (mid-80s) Suburban platform, but they were traced back to the brake techs not duplicating the factory smoothness and swirl finish when they resurfaced the rotors. As a result, it took too long for the pads to seat in and caused irregular pulling and early fade (and smell) until they did get seated in. When the resurfacing situation was corrected (per GM service bulletin), the problem went away. There is currently a tv ad for Performance Friction Carbon Metallic brake pads. It uses a C/K platform Suburban to illustsrate how much shorter the vehicle will stop with their brake pads. There may be some truth to that or they could get sued for making that claim, but it also points out that all brake pads are not the same. To repeat, when you buy brake pads for any vehicle in the weight range of a Suburban that can haul and/or tow even more weight, get the best brake pad you can buy and use the GM production pad as the minimum spec for your purchases. With regards to the HydroBoost conversions, what is the popular way to do that? The reason that I inquire about that is that this is the first I have heard of it. Also, if a customer comes in and wants a related part for a vehicle with a HydroBoost system that the GM parts information indicates was not produced with a HydroBoost system, I would like to be able to advise them of what they might have. We usually get that type of customer after they have been to the auto supplies and other dealaers where they were told that it was impossible that vehicle was built that way. My apologies for the length of this posting but I felt that there were some issues that needed to be mentioned and others to be clarified. Again, I regret that the event mentioned took place and that loss of life occurred. But to arbitrarily blame the vehicle for human indiscretions (by pedestrian and/or driver) is, in my opinion, not entirely appropriate. We all want vehicles that "stop on a dime", but as one driver’s ed book pointed out, that can be a very big dime. FS87LT
Response:
Of course you shouldn’t walk out into traffic – and if you do, and you get hit, its not the drivers fault. Nonetheless, little kids will continue to run into the street, and some careless adults will do it too. Since, no matter what we do, these people will continue to pop up in the middle of the street, it stands to reason that the better our brakes are, the fewer of these people will be hit. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’ll quote the photo caption… > The woman and child were walking across the street when a red van reportedly > obsured their view of an approaching sport utility vehicle > does that mean you walk out into the street anyway, even though you can’t > see? > I saw this accident on TV this evening. Involved an SUV > that looks like a late Suburban or Tahoe. The TV > station’s website has an interesting overhead photo > that makes it look like the SUV was able to stop about > half a car length beyond the impact point. Too bad the > SUV didn’t have better brakes, like the year 2000 models will have. > Jim > Here is info from two TV stations’ websites. > From KNBC Los Angeles website, 5-19-99 > http://msnbc.com/local/knbc/163693.asp The NBC website has a very > interesting photo > of the accident > Toddler fatally struck near school > LYNWOOD, May 19 – A truck driver struck and killed a three-year-old boy > and injured his mother while they crossed the > street at Lindbergh Elementary School Wednesday, hours after a > parent-teacher meeting about the need for a crosswalk. > Leonora Robles, of the PTA, chides school officials for not heeding > traffic safety warnings earlier. > The accident occurred at 8:15 a.m. at Cedar and Longvale avenues, said > Deputy Cruz Solis of the Sheriff’s Headquarters > Unit. The boy and his mother were taken to St. Francis Medical Center in > Lynwood, where the youngster died, Solis said. > The woman was listed in fair condition. > "We had to wait until there’s a tragedy? (Now) we have all the city > officials here looking at the scene. Couldn’t they be > here before this happened? -Leonora Robles, PTA President > Their names were not immediately released. Paramedic student Carlos > Jimenez witnessed the accident and > performed CPR on the toddler. "(The mother) said, ‘God, please take me, > not my baby,’" Jimenez said. "I’m trying to work > on the baby, trying to calm down the mom and she was just frantic." The > woman had just dropped off her 6-year-old daughter > for classes at the school and was walking back across a street when a > red van reportedly obscured their view of the > approaching sport utility vehicle. A meeting was held Tuesday night to > address concerns of parents and teachers about the > need for a crosswalk, stop sign or crossing guard at the intersection. > "We had to wait until there’s a tragedy?" PTA Treasurer Leonora Robles > asked. "(Now) we have all the city officials here > looking at the scene. Couldn’t they be here before this happened?" An > "emergency" meeting on the subject reportedly is > scheduled for Thursday morning. > Same story, and interesting photo from another angle, on KABC Los > Angeles website > http://www.abcnews.go.com/local/kabc/News/25513_5191999.html
Response:
And they came out with supplemental airbag retraints many many years after seat belts were in service. "Had they come out with airbags sooner…" What if the Suburban was hauling a 24′ boat behind it… would the HydroBoost brakes really have made a difference then ? Accidents happen, Jim. When you get people who are oblivious to what’s going on around them, or they don’t pay attention, etc., something is bound to happen. Maybe the Suburban driver was gazing at something on the left, and the mother wasn’t paying attention to traffic before crossing the street… well then you’ve got two people who finally realize at the last second what’s going on but then it’s too late. So stop popping off about the damn brakes. Your car or truck might be able to stop on a dime. But if the driver isn’t paying attention, or if someone walks out in front of them then it doesn’t make a bit of difference. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->JimL answers: >Do you have a Suburban? I do. >My Suburban came with a vacuum booster. Before I changed it over to a >HydroBooster I made numerous stopping >distance tests from 30 mph. After adding HydroBoost I tested again. The >distances were about 10 feet less. In the pictures >of the accident it appears that the Sub ran over the child by about 10 >feet. >Think about it… >Did I mention that GM is phasing in HydroBoost to be standard equipment >on its entire line of full size truck products, with the 1/2 Ton >Suburban to finally get it in model year 2000? We should be curious why >they would voluntarily install a more expensive power brake booster >when the (much cheaper) vacuum boosters they are using currently must be >meeting federal standards (or they could not be sold). >Think about it… >JimL
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I saw this accident on TV this evening. Involved an SUV > that looks like a late Suburban or Tahoe. The TV > station’s website has an interesting overhead photo > that makes it look like the SUV was able to stop about > half a car length beyond the impact point. Too bad the > SUV didn’t have better brakes, like the year 2000 models will have. > Jim > I truly can’t believe that someone who see’s one report of an accident > on TV and without knowing *any* of the possibly hundreds of other > mitigating factors that are involved in this (or any) accident would be > so brazen to come out and say "it was the brakes that were bad." How > absolutely ludicrous. > Let’s ask a few questions here…. How fast was she going? What > condition were her brakes in? Her tires? Was she distracted? Did she > have good reaction time? Did she try to swerve? Was it a slippery > surface? Did her foot slip off the brake pedal? What was the actual > stopping distance? > Jonathan Race, Firefighter/Paramedic II
JimL answers: Do you have a Suburban? I do. My Suburban came with a vacuum booster. Before I changed it over to a HydroBooster I made numerous stopping distance tests from 30 mph. After adding HydroBoost I tested again. The distances were about 10 feet less. In the pictures of the accident it appears that the Sub ran over the child by about 10 feet. Think about it… Did I mention that GM is phasing in HydroBoost to be standard equipment on its entire line of full size truck products, with the 1/2 Ton Suburban to finally get it in model year 2000? We should be curious why they would voluntarily install a more expensive power brake booster when the (much cheaper) vacuum boosters they are using currently must be meeting federal standards (or they could not be sold). Think about it… JimL
Response:
I saw this accident on TV this evening. Involved an SUV that looks like a late Suburban or Tahoe. The TV station’s website has an interesting overhead photo that makes it look like the SUV was able to stop about half a car length beyond the impact point. Too bad the SUV didn’t have better brakes, like the year 2000 models will have. Jim Here is info from two TV stations’ websites. From KNBC Los Angeles website, 5-19-99 http://msnbc.com/local/knbc/163693.asp The NBC website has a very interesting photo of the accident Toddler fatally struck near school LYNWOOD, May 19 – A truck driver struck and killed a three-year-old boy and injured his mother while they crossed the street at Lindbergh Elementary School Wednesday, hours after a parent-teacher meeting about the need for a crosswalk. Leonora Robles, of the PTA, chides school officials for not heeding traffic safety warnings earlier. The accident occurred at 8:15 a.m. at Cedar and Longvale avenues, said Deputy Cruz Solis of the Sheriff’s Headquarters Unit. The boy and his mother were taken to St. Francis Medical Center in Lynwood, where the youngster died, Solis said. The woman was listed in fair condition. "We had to wait until there’s a tragedy? (Now) we have all the city officials here looking at the scene. Couldn’t they be here before this happened? -Leonora Robles, PTA President Their names were not immediately released. Paramedic student Carlos Jimenez witnessed the accident and performed CPR on the toddler. "(The mother) said, ‘God, please take me, not my baby,’" Jimenez said. "I’m trying to work on the baby, trying to calm down the mom and she was just frantic." The woman had just dropped off her 6-year-old daughter for classes at the school and was walking back across a street when a red van reportedly obscured their view of the approaching sport utility vehicle. A meeting was held Tuesday night to address concerns of parents and teachers about the need for a crosswalk, stop sign or crossing guard at the intersection. "We had to wait until there’s a tragedy?" PTA Treasurer Leonora Robles asked. "(Now) we have all the city officials here looking at the scene. Couldn’t they be here before this happened?" An "emergency" meeting on the subject reportedly is scheduled for Thursday morning. Same story, and interesting photo from another angle, on KABC Los Angeles website http://www.abcnews.go.com/local/kabc/News/25513_5191999.html
Response:
Or maybe too bad the mother didn’t follow one of the first rules you learn in life : Look both ways before crossing the street. Doesn’t appear that they were even in a designated crosswalk. So naturally she should have been a little more cautious. And since it was after a parent-teacher meeting, the school speed limit was no longer in effect. The street was probably 40-45mph limit except during school hours when it’s 25. Morons these days think they can just walk across the damn street and the entire world is going to stop for them. But my question is–where did you come up with blaming the brakes on the Suburban ?? That’s almost as asinine as if I were to allege that it was the mother’s attempt to commit murder by intentionally crossing the street in front of the Suburban. I mean, c’mon. Do we blame the brakes on a train whenever some stupid fucking idiot tries to cross the tracks at the last second ?? While I do give condolences, let’s not get our head up our ass. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I saw this accident on TV this evening. Involved an SUV >that looks like a late Suburban or Tahoe. The TV >station’s website has an interesting overhead photo >that makes it look like the SUV was able to stop about >half a car length beyond the impact point. Too bad the >SUV didn’t have better brakes, like the year 2000 models will have. >Jim
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Jim answers Blake: Blake – Yes I agree it does look like the mother may have come into the street from behind a parked van (the KABC picture shows a parked red van), so the driver hardly had a chance to avoid hitting the little girl. But if you look at the very good overhead view on the the KNBC site (it was taken from their helo) you can see that the Suburban stopped only about half a car length after impact. We have had a thread here, and on the Suburban forum http://forums.vmag.com/suvsuburban0499/ where we talked about how the Hydroboost power brake unit, which has been stock on 3/4 ton Suburbans for a few years, and which will be stock equipment on all year 2000 Suburbans, gets shorter stopping distances than the vacuum booster that a half ton Suburban has, typically 10 feet shorter from 30 mph. We have also discussed how having a Hydroboost unit is especially important if the driver has legs that are less strong than average. The LA Times says that the driver in this accident was a 37 year-old woman. This accident, and the pictures of it, is remarkable because it seems to show that if the driver could have stopped those 10 feet sooner, there would have been no accident. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Or maybe too bad the mother didn’t follow one > of the first rules you learn in life : > Look both ways before crossing the street. > Doesn’t appear that they were even in a > designated crosswalk. So naturally she > should have been a little more cautious. > And since it was after a parent-teacher > meeting, the school speed limit was no > longer in effect. The street was probably > 40-45mph limit except during school hours > when it’s 25. > Morons these days think they can just walk > across the damn street and the entire world > is going to stop for them. > But my question is–where did you come up > with blaming the brakes on the Suburban ?? > That’s almost as asinine as if I were to allege > that it was the mother’s attempt to commit > murder by intentionally crossing the street in > front of the Suburban. I mean, c’mon. > Do we blame the brakes on a train whenever > some stupid fucking idiot tries to cross the tracks > at the last second ?? > While I do give condolences, let’s not get our > head up our ass. >I saw this accident on TV this evening. Involved an SUV >that looks like a late Suburban or Tahoe. The TV >station’s website has an interesting overhead photo >that makes it look like the SUV was able to stop about >half a car length beyond the impact point. Too bad the >SUV didn’t have better brakes, like the year 2000 models will have. >Jim
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> I saw this accident on TV this evening. Involved an SUV > that looks like a late Suburban or Tahoe. The TV > station’s website has an interesting overhead photo > that makes it look like the SUV was able to stop about > half a car length beyond the impact point. Too bad the > SUV didn’t have better brakes, like the year 2000 models will have. > Jim
I truly can’t believe that someone who see’s one report of an accident on TV and without knowing *any* of the possibly hundreds of other mitigating factors that are involved in this (or any) accident would be so brazen to come out and say "it was the brakes that were bad." How absolutely ludicrous. Let’s ask a few questions here…. How fast was she going? What condition were her brakes in? Her tires? Was she distracted? Did she have good reaction time? Did she try to swerve? Was it a slippery surface? Did her foot slip off the brake pedal? What was the actual stopping distance? My Lord, the list is endless, but nonetheless you saw one overhead picture of the scene on TV and immediately come to the conclusion of "bad brakes". Poppycock and other descriptive terms. There is *no* way of making that determination from the facts available in the news stories. Additionally, what are the local/state/federal regulations for brakes and braking distances for that particular vehicle? Do those brakes meet or exceed those regulations (if indeed they do exsist)? If indeed the brakes on that vehicle meet all appropriate rules and regulations, then is it still the fault of the brakes, or rather the driver who did not allow sufficient distance or was travelling too fast to stop in the given amount of space? Maybe, maybe not – it depends on a great many other factors. We may never know, and I hope nobody here ever has to find this out first-hand. Although GM may eventually be sued anyway (deep pockets), I sincerely doubt that it is the design or construction of the brakes that was the cause of the victim’s death, but rather some combination of other factors that led to this tragedy. Do the rest of us a favor and try your hardest to never get on a jury. I’d hate to think that someone would jump to such a hasty conclusion while knowing almost none of the facts. – Jonathan — Acta Non Verba – Deeds Not Words Jonathan Race, Firefighter/Paramedic II Orange County (FL) Fire-Rescue Division A-Shift, Station 41 – "The Shark Tank" (http://home.mpinet.net/backdraft) Please follow directions in my return address, or Reply to: jrace at bitstorm dot net
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